Husband material

33 thoughts on “Husband material”

1. Very well said, Nicole. 

   I listened to one of Driscoll’s sermons today in which he mentioned moving out of “mom’s house” alongside leaving and cleaving, and wondered what he meant.  (It wasn’t relevant to the sermon, so he didn’t stop to explain).  I’ve never heard it taught that way; however, I have heard that it was customary (ancient Jewish custom?) for the man to prepare a home before marrying.  Perhaps that’s why Driscoll is teaching that?  Either way, that is hardly the custom these days.  Whether or not it makes a man marriage material?  Absolutely it does (granted that he possesses all the other important attributes), but, like you say, I don’t understand why it would be essential.  Though, it does convey a certain message to women: that he is responsible, that he is serious about having a family, that he’s not attached to his mother, etc. 

   On that last part, I have to say that physical distance does not mean that a man is no longer cleaving to his mother.  There are exceptions to everything…

   I agree with all of your points.  A litmus test?  For respect and love, I was told to always pay attention to how a man treats his mother because that will be how he treats his wife.  How people behave around children is another excellent test.

2. Good list, Nicole.

   A friend who heard some of that stuff about moving out of home and setting up by yourself made a comment that in Britain in the 19th century, they used to teach kids independence by sending them down the coal mines as 5 year olds. I’m fairly sure he was being tongue-in-cheek. It did highlight, however, that our notion of what constitutes independence and thus dependability may be quite culture bound and even wrong-headed.

   Indeed, in the Ancient Near East, where people lived in extended families, moving out and setting up by yourself would be not so much a mark of independence as of defiance or at least, a failure to get on. I’m thinking Lot and Abraham in Gen 13, I’m thinking the prodigal son in Luke 15. It’s odd to hear preachers occasionally applying Genesis 2:24 about ‘leaving and cleaving’ as an exhortation to move out of home, since when you read the rest of the Old Testament this is the exact opposite of what they did. In fact, at least some of them being nomads, even if they tried to move out of home, home would follow them!

   I even wonder if you could argue that these days, the sign of a true man is one who, counter-culturally, stays living at home to look after mum. If he does that, he will likely do a good job looking after wife and kids.

3. I’m curious about why you say that Mark’s point from Gen 2:24 was hardly good exegesis. Could you explain more?

   To me, it’s an interesting phrase that comes out of the blue, if you will. Here we are, reading about God’s creation and suddenly there’s a statement about a man leaving his father and mother and cleave or hold fast to his wife… Really kinda out of left field?

   I believe there’s a significance to it, and I agree with you that mommy’s home isn’t really the issue here. If we follow the Biblical model, the father of the house should be the main decision maker of the house – and if the newly married couple stay under the same roof of either side’s parents, who makes the decisions? Can the decisions of the new husband really be made cleanly with the presence of either set of parents within the same house?

   It doesn’t make the new husband a “mommy’s boy” but it definitely has some repercussions in terms of the new household making sense of the new life by itself. Again, I don’t agree with the point that men should have their own houses before they get married due to the difficulty of that, but I would say that Biblically, a married man (and wife) should stay apart from his or her parents. Simply because Gen 2:24 says so. And with other good reasons too.

4. If every Christian girl in this city had to wait to find somone who had moved out of home and ‘owned’ property before they could marry we would have a whole lot more problems on our hands than just a few ‘Peter Pans’.

   Owning property in Sydney is beyond the reach of a large proportion of the population and certainly of the young people.

   Many of my friends chose to use the money they had saved for theological education instead of a deposit on a house.

   They made a costly decision in choosing to spend their money this way and may now never own their own homes.

5. Hi Nicole,

   Can I suggest you are exegeting Drsicoll’s words much to closely.

   This line of thinking he has expressed comes out pretty regularly in his Sunday messages and I think his point is not “you should buy a house”, but you should gain independance from your parents and learn to live our from under their juristiction.

   I would agree that the leave/cleave directives in Genesis do not require moving out before marriage (I didn’t). Practically speaking, it seems to be addressing a general societal trend to delayed male maturing. Like any catch-all statment, there will be plenty of exceptions, but this doesn’t invalidate the assertion completely. I have personally seen lots of living at home, 20-30 y.o. who could do nothing better for themselves than to move out.

6. Owning property in Sydney is beyond the reach of many young guys, that’s just a financial reality.

   However, I think Driscoll’s point about moving out of home stands. There are a whole heap of important life skills you learn when you leave home. I’ve known guys in their late 20s who still get all their meals cooked by mum, all their washing and ironing done too, even things like dad paying their car rego, and mum calling work when they are sick!

   Responsibility is a habit that needs to be developed. I’ve already told my boys I’m pushing them out the door once they complete school. Moving into a share house with some mate (or complete strangers) is all part of the adventure of being young.

   If I had daughters, I think I’d be less keen for them to move out young…

7. Its great, Nicole, that you are able to value Mark Driscoll’s wisdom and gifts and still recognise that we have to put some work in for ourselves to apply the principles to our own situation.

   I agree with Gordon that the real challenge for young men is to be able to live at home and model there the qualities women look for in a godly husband. A godly marriage is not one of dependence or of independence – it is one of interdependence. Peter Pan would be fine in his own house, doing what he wants [taking his laundry home to mum?] or having a fun time mucking in with ‘the boys’. It is the transition from dependent, self-concerned child to tolerant, patient, thoughtful, responsible adult within the family that requires maturity.

   One of the things that attracted me most when I met my husband was the way in which he cared for the frail grandmother who lived them, the consideration and practical help he provided to his mother and the active mentoring he gave to his brothers. It would have been much easier for him to live on his own and to focus on earning enough money to pay for a house but in that case I would not have given him a second thought as husband material.

   Perhaps there is also some work for mothers to do to adjust the role they play in their son’s life as he matures so that he doesn’t need to move out before she allows, or even more helpfully requires, him to be a mature, productive and contributing family member.

8. I’m curious as to why you didn’t include renting in your article? Renting is expensive in certain pockets of Sydney, but for many young people it is the first point of call when they move out of home.

   I can see why you would object to Mark’s encouragement for men to leave home, both on exegetical grounds and in terms of the practicalities. Mortgages are prohibitively expensive for many young people (though, as a mentioned above, renting is also an option that many explore) which we need to factor in before telling all our men to up and leave. I also agree that culture has a strong part to play.

   Bet let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Aware of the discrepancies that people here have pointed out, I chose to take Mark’s exhortation less literally and more as a general principle. I also chose to ask the question: what was the thinking behind his encouragement?

   While there are many godly reasons for staying at home, studies do show that Generation Y favour immediate pursuits and pleasures – travel, home entertainment, gadgets, nights out, etc – over saving for the future.

   This is not to point the finger at Gen Y, as there are a number of reasons why this is the case (one being a tough housing market). But what trends do show is that my generation – setting the god-fearing ones aside – is a lot more concerned with enjoying life over taking responsibility for the future.

   I wonder if – when we step out of our Christian bubble and excuse the errors Mark made on particularities – we will see the real problem that was being addressed: a glorification amongst Generation Y of worldly pleasures over responsibility, of selfishness over other-person centredness, of looking only to the here-and-now over preparing for the future – both immediate and heavenly. It’s something that both men and women of my generation need to be challenged by or encouraged on, if we are making efforts to stand out from the world in this respect.

   So I would add, Nicole, to your list a man who is responsible and mature. This may not mean he owns a mortgage or even a job, but it’s not a bad thing to think about all the same

9. Excellent post. You have really helpfully identified the difference between the principle (grow up!) and specific application of this.

   I think this is one area where Mark Driscoll is unfortunately culture-bound. In most of the non-Western world, where extended families are still the norm, maturity is not equated with physically moving out from their parents home. I know some fine Chinese Christian men who display their maturity by choosing to remain living with their parents after marriage.

   I suspect we are all reading our own experiences into this discussion and trying to extrapolate to what others should do.

   Moving out may or may not be a good response in modern Australia. But it is unhelpful to think it is the necessary biblical requirement to growing up.

10. Thanks for all the comments so far.  I thought I should make a quick clarifying comment in response to Walter’s question.  I do think Gen 2:24 is a good reason for a husband to move out of his parents home <i>once</i> he’s married.  My question was whether it provides any basis for a pattern where young men are expected to move out of home <i>before</i> getting married.  (My thinking on this is similar to what Gordon says in his comment).

11. What Mark said, (just listened to the podcast again) was,  “Australian men are immature”. He then went on with his blurb about buying houses etc. But the admonition about men being immature is correct – I feel.

    I don’t advocate the leaving home before marriage idea – there’s a heap of good spiritual and practical reasons not too – eg. purity and sexual responsibility are a little easier to manage for a young bloke if he’s at home as opposed to being out on his own without a level of protection offered by Mum & Dad.

    However, if the “boys” are staying at home so they can play on their WII or XBOX, etc instead of responsibly preparing for life as an adult who contributes to Church and society, then the charge is, in my observations, Guilty Australia! Time to put down the toys, get some steel in your spine and man-up.

    I also don’t know if the buying-v-renting thing is indicative of maturity. The data you listed on housing cost relative to income is significant. Plus, as a renter, who has never bought a property & who got married at the age of 21 and is still happily, lovingly, excitedly married after 16 years!, I would challenge those who prioritise buying a home to reconsider their kingdom priorties. I find the obsession in Australian culture with owning a home to be idolatrous. For my wife and I, renting provides us with considerable liberty in ministry that owning doesn’t. eg. We ministered in Africa a while back and could do so in financial freedom because we didn’t need to worry about our mortgage etc. How often does the mortgage stop someone from making sacrifices to serve Christ? For those who it does – consider whether you may be guilty of enslavement to mammon?!

    As the father of a daughter, I think your list is a good start
    I’d probably also want to know about their career ambitions etc – not because having a rich son-in-law is a priority, but because I want to know about the level of stability the young bloke has. If he can’t keep a job and doesn’t know where he’s going in life there’s a huge liklihood he’s ambiguous spiritually and won’t be able to lead his home faithfully for Christ – a far bigger concern.

12. I think there’s another set of cultural blinkers we wear in Aus: that family is ‘nuclear’. We tend to speak of family as the two generation thing – parent(s) & kid(s).

    This is true, of course! But we tend, I think, to give Genesis 2 the absolute say on what family is. But for the Bible as a whole, family is most commonly ‘extended’ rather than ‘nuclear’. Even as fathers or grandfathers, there are Bible blokes still considered as part of another man’s family (their grandfather, for example).

    I’m sure there are many implications for this. One is that we should be hesitant making Gen 2 the one and only passage about family.

13. I’m a guy and I don’t want to get married at all, as far as I can tell its going to cost an enormous amount of money and time and stress which would be better invested in relaxing at a cafe having a coffee and reading a good book.

    I’ll live longer and be richer and as far as I can see of all other couples, at least half of them split up before the end, why waste time with a 50% probability of failure, thats not a good investment.

    I don’t want kids, they cost close to half a million to raise if you want to send them to a good school, medical, etc, then they leave you at 18.

    I hope you respect my position as being a realist that is also a Christian, so I consider my position as Godly in expressing my desire NOT to marry. Everyone has a choice in that matter and reasons therefore.

14. I love this Mark Driscoll quote

    “Gentlemen, let me submit to you…that it is attractive too. When a girl asks “so have you been up to?” and you say “I got a job, a house and started a college fund in faith that God would send a godly woman for me to marry and have kids with” it is better than saying “I’m a guild leader on world of warcraft”

    I agree with other comments – his point is about growing up and taking responsibility rather than 100% of men need to be home owners – it’s almost impossible to get a mortgage here in the UK at the moment. Driscoll often overstates things to make a point.

15. Great post Nic, I love the list.  I think I’d want to add evidence that the young man is demonstrating something of what it means to live for Christ (as in Phil 1:20-22 “to live is Christ, and to die is gain”).  One of the biggest issues for young single men is the struggle of the self-centred earth-focused life – pursuit of pleasure, thrills, excitement, change….. (of course old blokes can still have the same problem but it’s a special problem for the young). It’s focus and priority on Christ above all else.  If this is in place I think some of the other things follow. If we find some of these blokes we need to put them on a website somewhere (just kidding).

16. I think my Mum is a bit surprised at all the things I have learned to do since moving out of home to get married 10 and a bit years ago – like cook, clean, do the washing and ironing etc.

    I take some umbrage at Driscoll’s comments but I get the idea he is driving at.  So in that regard he is a bit like Phillip Jensen – some hyperbole to get us thinking biblically.

    So these holidays maybe I should be teaching eldest son, age 6, how to cook?

17. One of my observations doing student ministry in Brisbane was that getting dumped really woke blokes up. Sounds a bit cruel, but I saw a number of guys really step up after they’d gone out with a girl and then she’d realised he wasn’t the material he should be. Made them take a serious look at their life.

18. Thanks again for another round of comments.  A few quick responses:

    – I think that there is a problem (in the circles I’ve moved in, anyway!) with lots of men in our generation – including some married men, as well as some single men – who are in their twenties and thirties and still haven’t learned how to work hard, discipline themselves, take responsibility for others, make plans for the future, and so on.  There is something about our culture that encourages immaturity and extended adolescence. 

    – And we women (married and single) are not without our characteristic sins and flaws too, of course!  Room for another post there one day, perhaps…

    – I should also clarify that I wasn’t trying to suggest that Mark Driscoll was laying down some sort of law that all men must move out of home, buy a house, get married and so on.  I don’t think he was laying down a law, but I think he was creating a paradigm, and reinforcing it by repetition.  My question is whether it’s the right paradigm. 

    – As I read back over the original post I’m already seeing some holes in my list of things that make for ‘husband material’ – eg. I didn’t really say anything about whether a guy is up for the task of protecting and providing for a family.  Thanks for the other suggestions of ways the list could be improved.

    – I’m still keen to hear ways that my long, boring, forgettable list could be crystallised into something more punchy and concrete and memorable (and Driscoll-like!).  What do you think are the litmus tests?  (bearing in mind that we’re talking generalities and rules of thumb here, not theological laws…)

19. Philip, I don’t think the Bible gives a law that all people have to get married – of course it is a choice, and a matter of Christian freedom. (And I don’t think Nicole’s post suggested it was anything other than a matter of Christian freedom.)

    But I do think the Bible teaches us what to value when we make those ‘Christian freedom’ choices: eg. on this issue, Prov 18:22, 31:10, 12:4, Psalm 127 (and Prov 21:9) … and Luke 18:29-30 and 1 Cor 7:35 too. 

    So I can think of Christian reasons for choosing singleness over a foolish marriage, or choosing singleness for the sake of the gospel, but I can’t for the life of me see how the Bible would encourage someone to choose singleness for the sake of having more money to spend on coffee. And speaking as a married man and a coffee drinker, I agree with the Bible on that one!

20. Hi Nicole,

    From yours and Driscoll’s comments, one could get the impression that all single men are immature slackers from a Seth Rogan comedy. That doesn’t match my experience of the single Christian men I’ve known. Some of them have loved to do things like play computer games, but none have ever sought to avoid responsibility, nor marriage.

    It’s also nice to hear that you recognise that women aren’t perfect, as your original post certainly seemed to have (in my single bloke’s eyes) an element of “men are soley to blame for my friends being single” to it, as well as some snide put-downs. Please remember to take out the planks in the female sex’s eyes before pointing out the splinters in men’s eyes.

    As a single man, 1 Corinthians 7 has been a great comfort for me, as I’ve understood it to mean that being single doesn’t make me second-class in God’s eyes. To me, Driscoll’s teaching does exactly the opposite: you should be married, and if you’re not you’re failing to obey God. To be frank, I’m concerned that what he’s done is sanctify his own personal experience, and then held it up as the model to follow.

    My other problem with your post, and Driscoll’s teaching, is that it seems to think that it’s easy for us all to be married with kids by the age of about 22. It’s not that simple or easy in this broken world. Even those of us who can meet most or all of your criteria may still take years to find a spouse. Others of us (myself included) have to face the fact that we’ll probably be single for life. There seems to be little empathy in Driscoll’s teaching, or your post, for those of us who find ourselves in this situation.

21. For what it’s worth, if anything, here are some of my scattered thoughts on the topic. Please note these thoughts are mainly aimed at myself since I want to be the kind of man I talk about. So they’re written with myself in mind, first and foremost. Also, please take these thoughts with a huge grain of salt since I speak as a single man who still has much to learn and grow in as well.

    • Marry a person who loves Christ first and foremost. What’s the highest good? The highest good, the summum bonum, is God himself. When God gave us his one and only Son Jesus Christ he gave us the best. Marry a person who knows that—not just intellectually, but really knows it deep down in his or her innermost being—down to his or her very bones—so much so that he or she can’t help but live it. As Augustine said, “He loves you too little, who loves anything together with you, which he loves not for your sake.”
    • Marry a person who is growing in grace (e.g. one who is striving to think God’s thoughts after him by regularly meditating on his word, by speaking with the Lord in prayer, by being committed to a local church and humbly sitting under the ministry of the preached word, fellowshipping with other believers, etc.). True growth in grace always makes one mature in all areas of life (e.g. stable in one’s career or vocation and finances, faithful in relationships, a person others can respect, etc.).
    • Marry a person whom you can at a minimum “like,” if not necessarily love—or not love yet anyway. Sure, it’d be wonderful if you can love the person straight away—if the sparks fly between both of you immediately, and the flames of your love never diminish but only grow hotter and hotter. But “liking” someone might be a better barometer than “loving” someone—at least when you first meet a person. Love is volatile and often blinds us. Often love can start off fiery and then just as quickly fade away. But the feeling of “like,” while not without its dangers, is, in my view, less susceptible to being blinded. Practically speaking, start off as friends and see if you like that person. And then see where it goes from there. Perhaps your friendship will be like cold soup warming up into hot soup. Who knows what the Lord has in mind? That’s safer in my view.
    • That said, think with your brain, then your heart, in a relationship, not your heart and then your brain. And let your brain be captivated by the word of God. Renew your mind with the word of God (cf. Rom 12:1-2). Make the Bible’s priorities your priorities. Feelings come and go. So make sure you build your faith on the truths of God’s word, not on how you feel about a person. I’m not at all suggesting you should be a robot and not have any feelings. I’m only suggesting that you put your feelings in their proper place—that is, after a mind renewed by the word of God.
    • Don’t marry an immature Christian thinking you can change him or her.
    • Don’t marry a person simply because you’re able to have great conversations with him or her. Perhaps a better measure for marital success is quiet, appreciative understanding of one another. After a while, topics of conversation become exhausted. Better see if one can have a comfortable silence with one’s beloved. Just basking in and enjoying one another’s company in grateful, golden silence.
    • Of course, this takes time. Again, have patience in finding out whether a person is the one for you. Go slowly, not quickly, in a relationship. Give yourselves time to grow and find out about one another. (Although this isn’t an excuse for the guy to not “man up” and pop the question to the girl either, if there is mutual interest and compatibility and so on.)
    • Related to this, give one another room, too. As a man and a woman become closer to one another, a woman begins to open herself up to more intimacy with him while a man begins to open himself up to more dependency on her. In a sense, a woman “loses” her intimacy for her beloved while a man “loses” his independence for his beloved. So give enough time and space for this to happen naturally, if it’s God’s will. Never force anything.

22. Continuing …

    • In Gen 2:18, God says that he will make a helper for Adam “fit” or “suitable” or “corresponding” to him. The Hebrew phrase literally means “according to the opposite of him”. Don’t marry a carbon copy of yourself. Men and women are meant to complement one another, not copy one another. Strive for completion, not duplication. This means we’ll have enough similarities in order to form a relationship with one another, but enough differences in order to become much better off as two than each could be alone without the other, and enough similarities which are reflected in one another, yet enough differences to complement one another.
    • Throw out romantic ideas from the movies and so on. Romance is beautiful but strive for biblical romance, not Hollywood romance. As CJ Mahaney said, “Before you touch her body, touch her heart and mind”. But do so in a biblical manner. And in order to know what that means, make sure you’re taking in the word of God on a regular basis.
    • Finally, here’s what Tertullian said about the beauty of Christian marriage:
      

      How beautiful, then, the marriage of two Christians, two who are one in hope, one in desire, one in the way of life they follow, one in the religion they practice. They are as brother and sister, both servants of the same Master. Nothing divides them, either in flesh or in spirit. They are, in very truth, two in one flesh; and where there is but one flesh there is also but one spirit. They pray together, they worship together, they fast together; instructing one another, encouraging one another, strengthening one another. Side by side they visit God’s church and partake of God’s banquet; side by side they face difficulties and persecution, share their consolations. They have no secrets from one another; they never shun each other’s company; they never bring sorrow to each other’s hearts. Unembarrassed they visit the sick and assist the needy. They give alms without anxiety; they attend the sacrifice without difficulty; they perform their daily exercises of piety without hindrance. They need not be … timorous in greeting the brethren, nor silent in asking a blessing of God. Psalms and hymns they sing to one another, striving to see which one of them will chant more beautifully the praises of their Lord. Hearing and seeing this, Christ rejoices. To such as these he gives his peace. Where there are two together, there also he is present …

23. G’day Hamish,

    Interested in this observation you made:

    I take some umbrage at Driscoll’s comments but I get the idea he is driving at.  So in that regard he is a bit like Phillip Jensen – some hyperbole to get us thinking biblically.

    Phillip Jensen says that this use of hyperbole can be traced back to our Lord Jesus himself.

    See http://www.cathedral.sydney.anglican.asn.au/pages/posts/mark-driscoll218.php

24. Great post, Nicole! I had similar thoughts about Driscoll’s man-up talks. They were good, but could have been even better had there been more solid biblical references like you’ve given in your list.

    Another one I’d possibly put up for discussion is what does it mean (practically and concretely) for a guy to love his wife as Christ loves the church (Eph 5:25)?

    I was really impressed with the guy who asked me this early in our relationship: “What does it mean for me to love you as Christ loved the church? How can I be supporting you and caring for you?” And so we chatted about reading the Bible together, praying together, how we could grow in godliness, how we could do ministry together, and how he could support me and care for me. I then followed his lead (because he had lead so well!), and asked him how I could support and encourage him. And then we prayed.

    It was such a great joy! And my respect for him really grew at this point! Here was a man who knew how to lead his girl, and who was concerned about how he could love her as Christ loved the church&#*212;a man who wanted us both to grow in our godliness! To have a guy focused on such things was a wonderful reflection of his Christ-focused maturity.

25. Roger,

    Thanks for the comment and the honesty of your response.  Can I assure you that I really wasn’t aiming for ‘snide’ in the tone or content of the original post (and I was shocked to learn that you read it that way)! 

    Nor was it my intention at all to imply that ‘all single men are immature’.  In fact, the last few paragraphs (which were actually intended as the main point of my post) made it pretty explicit that I don’t think that. I was arguing <i>against</i> the idea that single men who don’t own real estate and haven’t moved out of home are, for those reasons alone, to be dismissed as immature “mommy’s boys”.

    But I do still think there are a lot of immature young men out there (inside and outside the church) extending their adolescence into their twenties and thirties.  (Maybe that’s not the case in the circles you move in!!)  And I’m glad that element of our (church) culture is being challenged at the moment. 

    Of course, as you say, we women are not without our own sins, and I have plenty of sins of my own.  But on this issue, I’m not sure how I can go about getting rid of all the logs in the collective female eye before having anything useful to say to my single female friends about what to look for in a potential husband.

26. A quick comment in relation to Roger’s comments. I’ve been involved in young adult ministry almost from the day I became a Christian (26 years ago), and while, like you, Roger, I’ve known many wonderful Christian men, and have learned from them and been inspired by them, my experience suggests there are many more immature Christian men under the age of 30 than women (in numbers and proportionally). As well, there is a mountain of secular research to support the fact that men mature later.  In fact, some recent brain research has argued that adolescence needs now to be seen as continuing for males until at least 25 years of age. While I see Christian young men as much more mature and responsible than their non-Christian mates (on the whole), they often lack the maturity of their Christian sisters.

27. Hi Nicole,

    I’ve been reading along, and wrote my own little blog post, which you’ve essentially included in your additional comment. I’ve been trying to think up litmus tests (and perhaps Mark mentions the ones he does because they are concrete, and as Lesley suggested, are potential flags or symptoms of deeper attitudes and values). One I keep in mind, which I read somewhere so it is not my original thought (and this is perhaps not really a straight line exegetical application, but it makes sense to me) is: if you want some idea as to how well a guy will love you like Christ loved the church, then take a look at how he loves the church e.g. –

    • is he committed to being there, for a start?
    • does he take responsibility/give up his time for anything?
    • how does he care for other people at church?
    • does he pitch in for unpleasant tasks as well as the fun stuff? (eg sticking around to clean up when the event is over)

    I don’t mean to suggest something legalistic about an amount of church activities (and a guy who is involved in absolutely everything at church because he can’t say no could be problematic too!), but I think that, as a rule of thumb, it works.

28. I have been somewhat troubled by the continually extending list of desirables in a man of marriage potential.

    I was told years ago that Phillip Jensen gave a talk at St.Helen’s in London, presumably based on his observations in The Last word on Guidance which basically distilled the necessary characteristics of a future spouse to: Christian and of the opposite sex! Forgive me if I am misrepresenting what was said but that is how it was conveyed to me.

    I am quite worried that men will become even more unsure of themselves and feel unworthy of marriage until they reach the bar which is being set so very high.

    Isn’t there room for grace and growth within marriage? If we are advocating men marrying earlier, then surely they will have had far fewer years available to them for becoming so amazingly godly (as the list suggests), and we should therefore not demand or even expect such a high standard of them. As Trevor points out, men already mature later; so are we to wait till they are mature or marry early and work on growth within the marriage?

    I am happy to see that the list of desired traits is free of worldly attributes which clearly add to the reasons why some don’t find the perfect man. I particularly notice in our culture the importance placed on level of education in a spouse.

    Also, the list doesn’t appear to consider the background/family upbringing for some men (and women for that matter). If you have come from a loving and committed Christian home, making you marriage material straight out of high school, then you are incredibly blessed. This is just not the experience of many, and maybe God makes us wait till some measure of healing makes us more able to sustain a relationship such as marriage.

    As for making future plans, apart from serving God wholeheartedly as we are to do in whatever season of life we are in, how can you make plans for marriage and children if you are single? You don’t actually know whether you will ever marry, and it can be decades (I know) before it happens, if it does at all.

29. Perhaps this is a tangent, but Wendy Alsup, who teaches the women at Mars Hill Church, blogs today about how women are helpers of men, just for the balance:

    http://theologyforwomen.blogspot.com/2008/09/back-to-theology-god-is-my-help.html

30. Since Gen 2 has been the locus of discussion, I thought an excerpt from The New Bible Commentary might be suggestive, even if one does not necessarily agree with every word written (although your mileage may vary):

    2:18–24 The creation of woman. Despite the idyllic environment there was something wrong. God said that ‘It is not good for the man to be alone’ (18), and after his repeated observation that all he had created was good (e.g. 1:10, 31) this comment is a shock and serves to highlight the next acts of creation.

    First, animals were created as the man’s companions. They were under human authority (the man named them in v 20), but it was intended that they should not be exploited (cf. on 1:24–31). Unfortunately, animals were not the perfect companions for the man. It was only the creation of woman that fully satisfied him.

    The charming tale of God creating Eve out of Adam’s rib and then presenting her to him as if at a wedding sums up beautifully many of the key biblical ideas about marriage. Here and in 1:27–28 we have God’s standard for relations between the sexes set out. Whereas 1:28 emphasized the importance of procreation, 2:20–24 explores the nature of companionship within marriage. First, husband and wife complement each other. Suitable helper would be better be translated ‘helper matching him’, i.e. supplying what he lacks. She is his missing rib. Matthew Henry commented on God’s choice of a rib to create Eve, ‘Not made out of his head to top him, not out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved.’ Perhaps this reads a little too much into the rib, but it expresses well the biblical ideal of marriage.

    Secondly, the union between man and wife should be permanent: a man is united (lit. ‘sticks’) to his wife, and they will become one flesh. Jesus (Mt. 19:5) and Paul (Eph. 5:31) quote this in decrying divorce.

    Thirdly, a man must put his wife’s interest above all others, even his parents. He will leave his father and mother, not by going to live elsewhere but by putting his very important duty to care for them (Ex. 20:12) second to his duty to look after his wife (cf. Eph. 5:25–29).

    Fourthly, the wife is under the authority of her husband: he names her woman (23) and later Eve (3:20), just as earlier he had named the animals (19). This concept of the man’s head-ship is taken for granted elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. 1 Cor. 11:3; 1 Pet. 3:1–6).

    Finally, it may be noted that God created only one Eve for Adam, not several Eves or another Adam, thereby indicating divine disapproval of both polygamy (cf. Lv. 18:18; Dt. 17:17) and homosexual practice (Lv. 18:22; Rom. 1:26–27).

31. Thanks Ali and Cathy and Patrick (and Dad!) for the great comments. Lots to think about there …

32. Thanking Tim Challies for the tip, I enjoyed reading Anthony Esolen’s humorous but wise list of mays, may nots and musts when it comes to choosing a spouse, entitled The Rules.

33. We Aussie males have lost our roles in church due to our lazy learned behavior, which is increasing more in each generation. This is flowing over very fast into our churches. 65% of most churches are made up of females, so is there a problem? There sure is. Until we sort out this problem, the churches of Australia can’t expect to see any growth.

    At this point in time, we have to sift through what Mark has said, look at our own lives and see where we need to change and, as a family of God, grow in maturity in the love and mercy that God has shown us. Ultimately, it is His word we stand on and follow, not that of man.