It’s the question that every Christian parent knows is coming sooner or later. I’m driving when six-year-old Thomas pipes up from the back seat. We’re alone, which doesn’t happen often in a family of six, so it’s a precious time for us. Deep thoughts are clearly running through his head: “Mummy, why do some people believe in Jesus and not others?”
It’s a question my older son and daughter have never thought to ask. But Thomas is a theologian in miniature, and he’s been puzzling over complex doctrinal issues since he was three: “Mummy, why can’t I see God?”; “If I wave my hand like this, am I touching God?”; “How long is forever?”; and now, “Why do some people believe in Jesus and not others?”
There’s a moment of silence while I consider what to say. I could play it down. I could talk about the human factors—our choices, our backgrounds, our opportunities. I could even do some fancy theological footwork and talk about how God’s choice and ours fit together. But I decide to start from first causes: “We believe in Jesus because God chooses us.”
That’s not the end of it, of course. It never is with this child! We throw around ideas about total depravity (“Some people are just really bad, aren’t they Mummy?” “No, honey, we all do bad things every day. We all need God to forgive us.”) and unconditional election (“God doesn’t choose us because we’re better than anyone else, but because he loves us.”).
As we talk, I think of my own parents. I thank God that during my childhood, they didn’t avoid the hard questions. They talked about the Trinity. They talked about hell. And they talked about predestination.
I remember grappling with the implications of predestination when I was about nine years old. I stared at the countries scattered across the double page of an atlas, wondered about all the people who didn’t believe in Jesus, and felt scared and overwhelmed. It could have been the stuff of nightmares, but it was actually the stuff of theological formation.
It put big thoughts in my young mind. It gave me a firm foundation for when I was at university, facing doubts and hard questions like the gleeful public challenge of a philosophy lecturer: “If God made the world good, then where did the snake come from?” It developed my theological muscle, readying it for the tough issues of adulthood. Above all, it taught me to think great thoughts about our great God.
So when I answer my son’s question, I tell him how it is. But I also give him the good news. I share the beautiful side of predestination—the wonderful, startling, incredible reality of God’s grace given to the undeserving: “Did you know that God decided to love you before he even made the world? Isn’t that amazing? Isn’t that fantastic?!”
I look at my son and smile to see his smile.
Jean,
you wrote “I share the beautiful side of predestination”
What about the not so beautiful side of predestination. Do you think some children are predestinated to hell and tortured forever?
I think that God is just and doesn’t punish any of us more than we deserve. It is only his mercy that saves me from the hell I deserve for rejecting him.
That’s why predestination is “beautiful” – it’s about God’s grace, not about what I deserve. We’re not neutral, picked for judgement or salvation. We all deserve judgement, not mercy, and only God’s grace can save us.
Jean,
I’m not sure I understand your position. Are all kids predestined to heaven or are some kids predestined to hell?
Marc,
Oh dear, and I was hoping you’d leave it at that … *deep breath* …
I assume that if God elects adults to salvation (undeserved) or judgement (deserved) the same is true for children. Romans 9:10-13, about Jacob and Esau, would suggest so. And I believe in predestination because the Bible teaches it so clearly (Romans 9-11, Ephesians 1).
Is this fair? I don’t think children are morally neutral: a superficial look at my own children tells me that! Like adults, they are naturally self-centred and rebellious. We are born outside the garden, born into sin.
How does this affect babies and infants before the age of knowing right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15)? I don’t know. I’m confident about the babies of Christian parents on the basis of 1 Corinthians 7:14, but I know there are many different views on this, and I haven’t studied the issue in detail, so I don’t want to be dogmatic about it.
Do I find any of this easy? No. I love the doctrine of predestination, because without it my salvation isn’t entirely of God’s mercy; but I find the doctrine of hell very difficult. If I’m able to believe it, it’s only because I trust that the God who sent his Son to die on the cross didn’t do it unnecessarily: the cross shows how evil sin is and how greatly it needs to be punished, and how great God’s mercy is that he would give up his Son.
Do I need to know the answer to all these questions? No. I look at the cross and I see that God is just and merciful. I don’t have all the answers, but I do trust God to be far more just and merciful than I could ever be.
In Christ,
Jean.
Great post, and great answer Jean. I think we are often given to answering kid’s ‘deep’ questions with a brush off ‘don’t worry about that – you wouldn’t understand’. Often I wonder if that is code for ‘I’m not so sure, I can’t explain it and I don’t want to take the time to bother – who wants an ice cream?!’
I enjoy these sorts of questions from kids because they force me to think carefully and explain a difficult concept simply, without being simplistic – which is often difficult. (I often find preparing kids talks and Sunday school materials more difficult than an ‘adult sermon’ because ‘simple’ can often lead to ‘wrong’)
I also think it is a good habit to get into to start answering these sorts of questions from early on, rather than ‘waiting until you are older’ – because that sends the message that growing in maturity and understanding is something that happens when you are a ‘grown up’ – buts its a habit we need to start and encourage for all ages.
Thanks, Peter.
You’ve made some excellent points – thanks! I’ll have to bookmark your comment.
In Christ,
Jean.
Anyone who’s following these comments, or who’s interested in the topic of how to teach children about theology, may enjoy reading the comment stream on this post on my blog, where we discuss all kinds of things like how to talk about the Trinity with children.
Jean,
Thanks for your explanation. I’m trying to understand your predestination position so I can coherently explain it to my kids. So to summarise what you wrote:
– Some Muslim kids who die very young might be predestined to heaven
– Once Muslim kids are old enough to know right and wrong (Isaiah 7:15; older than ~1 year olds) then they are predestined to hell to be tortured forever if they don’t convert later in life.
– All Muslim adults are predestined to hell to be tortured forever if they don’t convert; unless their spouse is a Christian in which case they are predestined to heaven (1 Corinthians 7:14).
– Muslim kids who have one Christian parent are predestined to heaven along with their other non-Christian parent (1 Corinthians 7:14).
Did I summarise your position correctly?
Marc, I think you got Jean’s point wrong. It’s got nothing to do with being from a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or atheistic background, it’s all about God’s predestining grace. No-one can choose without God calling them to that choice. We are all rebels who deserve to be tortured in hell forever. God just happens to be gracious enough to save some, whatever their background or upbringing.
Thank you, Jenny, well put.
Jennie,
I agree with all you say, but you put it in so fuzzy terms that you can drive a dogma truck through it. With examples I tried to clarify the issue where your general statements muddle the waters. Could you please clarify:
– If one dies as a Muslim was (s)he predestined to Hell?
– If a Muslim husband of a Christian wife dies, is he predestined to Heaven? (1 Corinthians 7:14)
Marc,
Let me put the questions this way: Is a person who rejects God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ responsible for his or her sin and therefore someone who justly suffers eternal judgment?
Answer: yes.
If the expressions of sin (rejection) include the worship of false gods, are they any less responsible?
Answer: No. Our ignorance of the one true God is culpable ignorance, for we have rejected the creator to worship false gods.
The Bible teaches us that no one is righteous before God, not even one. All deserve everlasting wrath. God as his judgment then hands us over to a life of sin(Romans 1) but as those who deserve that terrible judgment. So then, that God in his mercy has chosen to save some is just marvellous, and that is the point of this great post. None of us is worthy of this.
In discussing predestination and in posing questions about it, we need to avoid falling into the mistake of tthinking God predestines otherwise iinnocent people to hell. That is not what the Bible teaches.
Philip,
I agree with all you say, but I don’t think you answered my questions. Could you please clarify:
– If one dies as a Muslim was (s)he predestined to Hell?
– If a Muslim husband of a Christian wife dies, is he predestined to Hell? (according your comment above)
Hi Marc
I don’t think the Bible answers your questions; perhaps that is why some of the other commenters seem reluctant to as well.
That is, the Bible speaks about predestination reasonably often, and in the kind of terms that Jean has used. It’s a doctrine of comfort and joy.
But the Bible doesn’t speak of God predestining people to hell (whether they are old or young, Muslim or otherwise). Not that I can find anyway.
And while I am not in favour of giving our kids a thoughtless theological brush-off, one of the other lessons we need to teach them is that we simply don’t know the answers to some questions. “The secret things belong to the Lord, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever” (Deut 29:29)
TP
Tony,
It is so rare to hear a Calvinist (or non-Calvinist) to make a full and coherent description of what the predestination actually means. (Hmm… come to think of I did hear at the St Andrews Cathedral that most ministers are only four-and-a-half pointers). Even educated Christians are hiding behind the fluffy sweet talk like they never understood 1 Peter 3:15.
My questions were fairly straight forward. Like Jean said God chooses us and has predestined his people to heaven. The Bible seems to be also quite clear that there are only two afterlife options. Having only two options and people not randomly getting to heaven, logically and biblically, it is clear that some are predestined to Hell. Even if you don’t hold Calvinists (double) predestination and the Westminster Confession of Faith, an Anglican should at least make coherent defense and have courage to answer easy questions. The Bible is also quite clear of the final destination of Muslims or other people who deny Jesus as their savior.
Catholic or atheist commentators could run over this blog without breaking a sweat so all of you play harder or go home.
All the best.
Marc,
Yars, and no. Your questions were asked in straight forward english. But you either find it difficult to communicate with the written word or you were being somewhat hamfisted with communicating your intentions.
So early on you claim to Jean:
Which suggests a kind of ‘faith seeking understanding’ kind of stance, and importantly that you were wanting an answer that you could give to children.
A bit later you state:
Which suggests a slightly less benign stance – of trying to push Jennie into putting things more in the ways you think are needed to avoid your dogmatic reticulating vehicle finding suitable sized gaps in the presentation. Unless your children are driving theological heavy vehicles underage and without a license this kind of answer is hardly the kind you claimed you were seeking.
And then in your most recent comment we get the final salvo, with of course the obligatory smiley face to make sure that we all know that you’re really a nice guy.
To claim you wanted an answer for children, but to criticise the answers given because they wouldn’t be appropriate to a Catholic or atheist controversialist is most likely either the product of a confused mind, or of someone looking to score easy rhetorical points cheaply.
If you want an answer for children, then ask the kind of questions appropriate to that issue.
If you want a fight, either for your own sake, or because you want to champion the cause of atheists and Catholics, then make that clear.
And if you want to act like a theological traffic cop and demand presentations hold up to your standards then make that clear.
But claiming one, then another, and finishing with a third? That comes across as just cheap point scoring.
In terms of the substance of your final complaint:
1.
Tony’s point is that it is clear logically but not biblically. It was also implicit in Philip Griffin’s point. Obviously saying that God elects some to eternal life implies that those not so elected also have their destinies pre-determined by God’s non-election of them. But Tony reflects a Reformed tradition that sticks fairly closely to the Bible’s explicit statements and doesn’t like chasing logic beyond what the Bible authorises.
The answer you were given was: We are all sinners and so deserve Hell. Out of those sinners God in his love elects some to life. Those so elected are saved by God’s positive choice. Those damned are condemned by their own sin, and cannot complain about their fates being sealed by choices made by God.
You might think that the only possible answer is double predestination and anything else can’t survive the impressive doctrinal truck driving skills of atheists and Catholics. That’s fine. But you were given a straight and clear answer.
2.
Yes the Bible is clear about the final destination of people who lack faith in Christ. And Jean, Jennie and Philip all explicitly endorsed that, in one way or another. You have implicitly accused people of something their own words repudiates.
No-one took up your concrete examples regarding muslims – and given how all over the place in this thread you’ve been, that’s probably not a surprise – but you’ve had multiple clear statements of the general principle – without faith in Christ a person goes to Hell.
Marc, what are your answers to your own questions, and why?
Just trying to bring this back, as much as one can to teaching children about pre-destination (I’ll confess I don’t believe the bible unreseverdly supports the Calvinist view-but we could fill many books with that topic)
Surely the follow-up question to your response Jean is;
“but why does God choose to love some people and not everyone?”
Is there a response other than “God’s ways are not our ways”?
Hi Melinda!
Yes, it is the obvious question, isn’t it?
There’s two things I’d say:
– It would be just for God to judge any and every one of us. We all reject him and deserve his judgement. It’s only mercy that he chooses any of us.
– I think the Bible addresses your question in Romans 9:14-21, and it answers it by saying that, first, God has the right to do what he will with the people he’s made; second, he judges some (e.g. Pharoah) to display his power and anger against sin; and third, he does it “to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy”.
In other words, the reason that God doesn’t choose everyone is the same reason he does everything: to display his glory (his power, wrath and mercy) – and in the end, the whole universe is about God’s glory and the glory of his Son.
I guess the question we should really ask is, “Why does God choose to save anyone?”. Perhaps if we saw our sin more clearly that’s the question we’d ask. If predestination does anything, it highlights the fact that salvation is all about God’s mercy.
Thanks for the question, Melinda, and I hope that helps clarify things!
In Christ,
Jean.
Mark,
I like the fire in you! And I thought that is was obvious from my writing style that I was not trying to be a nice guy. The smiley face with a wink was there so that the last sentence would not be taken too seriously. Oh well… no more emoticons for me.
I don’t know if questions could get much simpler than easy yes/no answers. In my experience when people write long answers which don’t include yes/no, they don’t know or want to say the answer. One of my kids’ teachers in the church is a Calvinist, but for some reason my kids come to me with more questions than answers after going to the church. I think they get so long worded fluffy answers that they loose their concentration half way through and don’t know if it is yes/no/maybe/I don’t know.
Somehow people often imply that we need to follow closely to the Bible’s explicit statements and should not chase logic beyond what the Bible authorises. At the same time they tend to happily spend time explaining Trinity or doctrines like relationship between two natures of Jesus. I guess that chasing is authorised.
You said
“given how all over the place in this thread you’ve been…”
This is just nonsense. My every single comment clearly focused on only one topic, predestination to hell. Did you actually read what I wrote?
Jennie,
The biblical answers to those two questions I asked you are: 1) Yes, 2) No. Muslims denying Jesus as their saviour don’t go to Heaven. God clearly did not elect or predestine to Heaven people who die denying Jesus as their saviour. They are predestined to Hell. But I’m pretty sure you knew this already, so you must be testing me.
Actually Marc, I really did want to know what you thought. And I am testing you, in the same way that you have tested Jean and we all test each other. Steel sharpens steel!
The mind of God is deep beyond measurement and often a simple yes/no answers does no justice to the subtleties of what God reveals to us.
I think the main thing to emphasise to children is that God is good, he is never unfair, and he knows everything he needs to know to reach a right judgment. Sometimes we think it’s the wrong judgment, but that’s because we might start from a wrong premise (eg a misunderstanding of the horror of sin) or with incomplete information.
Thanks for starting a great discussion.
Marc,
If I didn’t answer your original questions about Muslims, it’s because the tone of your questions, intentional or not, seemed to me to be one of rhetorical point-scoring rather than of seeking the truth in love.
But if you truly are interested, here’s what I think.
Anyone who dies – Muslim, athiest, Hindu, agnostic, nominal Christian – without having put their trust in Jesus shows that they were not predestined by God to salvation. The only way we can know if anyone is predestined is that they persevere in Christ to the end, or put their trust in Christ at the end of their lives. (And, of course, we may never be privy to this knowledge!)
On babies: as I made clear, at this point I’m leaving the Bible’s clear teaching and speculating – which is something the other commenters have very wisely refrained from! But I think that at times the Bible implies that there is headship in families (for example, the jailer who converts to Christ and his family is baptised). So I assume that children of Christian parents are Christian until they turn away from Christ (this is the assumption my husband and I work with as we raise our children), and that children of non-Christian parents are not Christian and are under God’s judgement until they put their trust in Christ. Again, this is speculation, and it’s not something the Bible talks about clearly – and I’m sure many of the other commentaters will disagree with me on this one. In the end, what any of us thinks about this is irrelevant to what will happen: God, the judge of the earth, will do right. I trust him to be just and merciful.
If a non-Christian is married to a Christian, no, I don’t think they will go to heaven unless they put their trust in Jesus. They are old enough to have made their own decision (as is the child who turns from his or her parent’s faith) and will be judged according to how they respond to Jesus.
Like Jennie, I would like to hear your answer to your own questions.
In Christ,
Jean.
p.s. I would be happy to discuss any of these issues with my children. I would explain things as simply and clearly as I could. And I’d admit when I was uncertain, and when I just didn’t know!
The other day our 6 year old said to his 3 year old brother, “In one sense that’s true, in another sense that’s not true”, so you can see they are used to subtlety!