There seems to be a restlessness—an unease—among younger evangelicals. Something is wrong with the way we do church. How can we fix it?
Can I say very clearly how wonderful I think this is. We should always be self-reflective—self-evaluating—measuring our ministries against God’s word and making changes to reach people. In so many ways, we need this disquiet to break out of our moulds, to fight the new fights of the next generation and to take risks for God’s sake.
But I suppose it does have its dangers too. Here are some of them:
- Arrogance: We think that we, rather than God, are the solutions to all the problems of the world.
- Reaching the wrong audience: We embark on a subtle shift towards trying to win the respect of cutting-edge peers (in the internet world), instead of reaching the outsider (in the real world).
- Style over substance: Increasingly, we seem to value what is cool or tech-savvy over what is biblically true.
- Commending rather than contending: We sometimes want to show Christianity in its best light (by leaving out the hard truths), instead of contending for God’s word to be heard (even when the ears don’t want to hear it). We want to avoid issues that will divide or won’t be appealing.
- A disdain for previous generations: We are in great danger of breaking God’s commandment to honour our fathers and mothers—to honour the aged—to honour those who have contended before us.
These are not so much dangers for those who are ‘successful’ (I hate that word, but you know what I mean); they’re more for those who aspire to be ‘successful’. I can see all these dangers within myself; they crouch at my door and I must master them.
These are dangers, but they are only that. None of them should stop us from evaluating what is wrong with the way we are trying to reach the world, and then doing something about it. None of them should stop us from being courageous and a bit ‘out there’. But perhaps they should cause us to tread a bit more carefully.
All good thoughts Andrew.
But my reading of teh zeitgeist is more:
a. The younger generation comments.
b. The younger generation is kinda not listened to and receives a dish of ‘yeah buts’.
c. The younger generation is (too quickly) accused of pragmatism, arrogance and disresepct.
It is this trajectory that pushes the younger generation away from the older guys who will help ground them
theologically and morally.
I am very worried about the younger generation going arrogant and sloppy. But I fear the big reason is how little airtime the older generation gives them.
@Mikey.
1. (warning) I won’t approve your comments again if you use fancy German words.
(apologies to our German readers)
2. In terms of what you are saying, what airtime are we missing out on?
0. Mike. Michael. Mikey. But never Mick or Mickey
1. Hehe.
2. Being really heard and listened to. The ‘vibe’ I get is that there’s not a whole heap of that going on… although sounds like MTC’s consultancy this year has been a very impressive gesture. More of that.
I will fix that spelling above.
I’m agreeing with you Mikey. Well put.
@ Mikey and Steve.
I’m suggesting that these are dangers we have to overcome and it seems like you are saying that it is the previous generations fault! What about taking responsibility for ourselves?
Also, in terms of airtime. What do you want? As far as I know, you both are involved in great church plans, you both have blogs, Steve contributes to Sydney Anglicans, Mikey is speaking at a conference with Chappo in Melbourne. What more airtime do you want?
And also, why wait for others to give you airtime? Isn’t the whole point to create our own?
Mikey
IF an older generation thought a younger generation was being unwisely ‘pragmatic, arrogant and disrespectful’, how would you suggest the older generation, responsibly as ‘fathers in the Lord’, deal with the matter?
Di
It’s a bit funny that this appeared today – it reads a bit like a reaction to yesterday’s article (although I’m well aware that it was written a while ago, the juxtaposition of the two articles made me smile).
I try and be respectful to the older generation (does that mean you Andrew?
) and it frustrates me when people my age just dump on older people because they “just don’t get it”. Obviously there are some things everyone doesn’t get. I don’t always agree with those who are older, but that doesn’t mean we can’t respect them. It’s listening to what they do have to say, having had more experience in general that us, maybe not in the specifics, but human nature hasn’t changed, even if technology and culture has.
Also – I think that this post was just the right length
Andrew, that was really graciously put, and I think it is an excellent caution. In regards to courtesy and respect, I’d encourage all of us (but especially the younger gen) to be “above reproach”. If someone is going to criticise you, don’t let it be for being rude or ungrateful.
But I’d also like to put the following thoughts out there –
* Many of our “forefathers” locally were revolutionary, and they had “interesting” relationships with the senior clergy that preceded them.
* The young don’t know what it’s like to be old, but the old know what it’s like to be young.
* The young *are* easily discouraged, especially when it comes from those they respect. It’s worth bearing in mind.
* Somewhat paradoxically, the young will also “switch off” quickly if they feel they are not being heard. Those who want to influence the next gen need to bear that in mind.
I see a real generational split occurring at the moment, I’m sure Andrew see’s it as well. I just hope and pray that both sides will extend maximum grace to each other, and that we can avoid bitterness and ill-will.
@Dianne, Rodeo and Craig.
I thought I was one of the young guys – that’s what I was thinking when I wrote it.
I don’t think anyone should stop being revolutionary. Bring it on! The foot should be placed firmly on the accelerator – but I’d just ask that people keep an eye on the Sat Nav and mirrors to make sure we are going the right direction.
lol – *I* think of you as one of the young guys Andrew. And you are an excellent example of courtesy and gentleness, sorry to embarrass you, but it is very much true!
I think the young sometimes feel they are seeking a hearing, when what they actually want is approval. And it’s painful to find yourself on the opposing side of a respected elder.
But when we get over the need for approval, it puts us in a strong position to respectfully listen to those who have gone before, and then use or discard their advice without fear or favour. Once more, be “above reproach” in the area of courtesy! All of us!
@Craig
I am also worried about this divide. There are always divides but as the generations are getting more and more narrowly defined the tension is increasing.
Perhaps we should walk away a little from these labels. They may have some use as tools in reaching people, but we are brothers and sisters in Christ first.
@ Craig (your 2nd comment)
Well said and very astute.
Establishments that have been built upon strong prophetic ministries face three options:
1. Rediscover their prophetic voice by dealing -in a costructively critical way- with a current and significant blindspot that genuinely hinders the life and mission of the church.
2. Keep sounding prophetic without actually having anything to be prophetic about. In which case, criticism is no longer constructive but destructive and negative.
3. Make a transtition from prophetic voice to gracious etsablishment. At this point, the establishment becomes a sounding board, a prayerful encouragement, and a grounded resource for the church it transformed and the new prophetic voice wherever and whenever it may arise.
I think the unease of the next generation is largely because some of the establishments we have, and still do, love who were even a prophetic voice that we benefitted from, are currently hovering around option 2.
I think every Christian movement should assume it must transition to option 3 at some stage. I hope this generation of Christians who rightly recognise the form of church needs a serious refresh, graciously makes the transition themselves when their work is done.
Good thoughts, thanks for the discussion.
In regards to airtime (and I’m not just thinking about public forums), it’s not necessarily the amount of airtime – I’m not arguing that we need more airtime. The issue Mikey was raising wasn’t having the opportunity to speak, but how we are responded to when we do speak. The “yeah but” response, for example.
Learning how we can engage with each other, perhaps trying to understand where the other person is coming from, is really important I feel.
I appreciate Mikey’s comment about being heard.
Those of us who are older need to take time to build relationships with gen-next before we open our mouths to critique. We need to show we trust and respect them and positively appreciate their tendency to shake things up. Merely tolerating is not enough. It is easy to “listen” on the surface and then immediately jump in with our critiques and “buts” which show we are not really relinquishing control at all.
I wonder whether the generational tension being felt is also partly a symptom of the culture of suspicion that is not uncommon in Syd. evangelical circles.
Andrew I was assuming you were young!
I was trying to understand how Mikey thought older people should best express concerns if they had them.
@ Stu
Very interesting analysis. Can you skip the middle step or is it impossible?
@ Steve, Philip and Di.
I’m really enjoying the comments. Its interesting how the discussion has become a conversation about how the generations communicate with each other: how we value, engage with and still are able to raise concerns. Di, you raise a good question.
I suppose my original point was speaking to what I thought was my own generation about the dangers we must fight, without giving up attempting big things for God and his kingdom.
I agree with you Andrew, these certainly are dangers I need to be aware of in my own life – thanks for raising them and making us aware.
Yeah Andrew, I think it is entirely possible. As long as a ministry always focuses on how it can positively encourage the growth of the church according to its context, everything is dandy.
The issue is whether a ministry focuses on maintaining its form or whether it focuses on constantly refining its function.
Once a ministry focuses on maintaining its prophetic status, without having a clear and substantial change it’s fighting for, it’s doomed. It will just become an unhappy black hole of negatively stated orthodoxy.
A vexing question. thanks for the article andrew. I fear us oldies have never been good at listening and now that we are older for longer it exacerbates that dilemma. Even our radio djs are in the chair for too long!We oldies need to model constantly a desire to repect and listen.
Is there a good series of dvds around that gives accurate history of some of these dilemmas in the past?
Hi all,
Sorry that I’m a little late to the discussion (the story of my life) but I’m interested in hearing a bit about what Mikey and others mean by “being heard”?
I’ve always found this pretty difficult in ministry generally. Ultimately, having responsibility means that you make decisions that kind say “but” to some people right? So what makes someone feel heard?
Secondly, I am guessing that this “yeh but…” thing is what you feel about Sola Panel, but what other parts of your life/organizations etc. make you feel like this?
Grimmo.
@ Paul. I reckon it is hard to put into words – it’s the vibe we give.
But here are some thoughts:
* “Being heard” comes not just from listening but taking time to show that you are really trying to understand and work together.
* Enjoying younger people and their culture.
* Holding off verbalising the “buts” and “ifs” unless absolutely necessary. i.e. be more positive. The idea is not just OK, it is “awesome” (I work with a lot of Americans.)
* Actively create an environment which welcomes new and even crazy ideas.
* Give people permission to try and fail. I think the issue of control is a big one. Can I trust that he too has the Holy Spirit even if he is only half my age?
If we can do these sort of things, then when there is the need to critique or rebuke, it is taken as coming out of love, not just old-aged grumpiness.
Personally, I think many young enthusiastic Christians (myself included here!) hear more of No than Yes in the things we are passionate about. I’d love to see this enthusiasm harnessed and enabled more than warned and cautioned. It would be such a shame to see our generation walk away and feel like we haven’t been heard. This next generation will only grow as the current generation declines, so we would love our voice to be listened to!
A quote from Francis Schaeffer (from Mark’s blog) that certainly aligns with one strong thread of this discussion:
“One of the greatest injustices we do to our young people is to ask them to be conservative. Christianity today is not conservative by revolutionary. To be conservative today is to miss the whole point, for conservatism means standing in the flow of the status quo, and the status quo no longer belongs to us. Today we are a minority. If we want to be fair, we must teach the young to be revolutionaries, revolutionaries against the status quo.”
h/t Mark Earngey
http://earngey.blogspot.com/
It’s a great quote from a great evangelical who straddled the generational gap!
Just for some context (it’s quite important here), here’s the previous sentence:
“Whether we live in the United States, Britain, Canada, Holland or other ‘Reformation Countries’ it really does not matter…Most Christians, especially those of us who remember what the United States was like forty-five or fifty years ago, go on as if we were in the majority, as though the status quo belongs to us. It does not.”
There is and isn’t overlap with our situation. But the main point is – current generation, please listen to us. We may have the wrong solution, but we may be right in our diagnosis.
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for those thoughts – really good stuff. In my limited experience and observation, one additional category to put on the list might be ‘local not global’. It seems to me that most of the discussion about planting new congregations / evangelism outreach etc is focussed on the person in my suburb or network ( or the network I’d like to get into), rather than the unreached people group or under-resourced church on another continent.
This seems a shame because we currently have the best opportunity ever to be helping christians overseas – with low travel costs, technology etc.
For those who don’t know me (and that is most) I am of the “younger generation” attending Christ Church St George that meets in Kogarah.
I’ve noticed that Andrew has mentioned a few times for us in the younger generation to look at ourselves in the mirror and asking ourselves if we are individually taking responsibility.
I TOTALLY AGREE.
Too often we in the younger generation are asking for others to change (i.e. the church) without looking at ourselves first. This is in particular on how our church needs to reach the people of today and be culturally relevant. That is to engage with people in a way that is relevant to the culture in which they live. And I have noticed this in particular since August last year when Mark Driscoll came to Australia and gave us his 18 points observation of the church.
First, it is absolutely true that our churches need to do a better job reaching people in our society. The mission of the gospel (evangelism) compels us to.
Second. It starts with ourselves, individually before it starts with the church. What I mean is that too often we’re (and this is of all age groups) asking the church (local and denomination) to do a better job reaching the outsiders without first doing it ourselves individually. But evangelism can be done both corporately and individually. For example meeting with someone to read the bible every week is an interpersonal activity.
I think before we have a “right” or the “credibility” to be speaking on evangelism for the church we must be doing it ourselves first. And it might mean some “success” needs to happen first before we can speak about it. That is, if people in the congregation see you are bringing new comers to church and are active in evangelizing they will listen to what you have to say. It is leading by example. People will start asking what they can do to support you and perhaps, maybe we should listen to that person because God is working through his/her ministry.
Renewal begins first with the person before the church.
Third. Take the initiative. Reaching others with the gospel does not need approval from others.
Fourth. It is the gospel, in the end, the word of God that saves people, not the way things are done in church.
It comes from personal reflection of my own ministry and hard lessons learnt (from it I have grown up, matured and “mellowed”). From it I’ve learnt what is worth fighting for, and how to do it constructively. For me its the gospel concentrating on reaching outsiders with it (individually), and not disagreements within church.
@ David.
Thanks so much for your call to personal responsibility and your refocus on how we need to get and out *do* it.
I think that this is also a drum that Mark Driscoll beats, and loudly. I think that people have misheard his 18 points if they think that he is saying “call on your church to change”. I think he was saying: “you young guys get into action”. But maybe I heard him wrong. (BTW I thought hearing him was a great shake up)
Also David, I think you are spot on when you talk about initiative and not waiting for permission.
@ Peter.
A great danger to watch out for. O/s church planting / resourcing should also be on the agenda.
@ Anyone
Are there any other dangers we (I take a very broad sense of the younger generation) should watch out for?
I love your post Andrew ! they are awesome !
@ Phil N – you are like Yoda. I wish you had a spot on the Sola Panel.
@ Andrew – you are the old guy of the young guys I think. there definitely seems to be a shift around the 35 mark.
@ young guys – great that you want to be heard, but Andrew makes a good point of not whining about the older generation -rather honouring them – as indeed the older gen would be wise not to “exasperate (provoke?) their children”.
@ Andrew re point 2 – I reckon this is a massive trap t – impressing peers – rather than winning the lost and shunning man pleasing.
would be great if you could elaborate on this more
other dangers?
thinking new structures are inherantly good and old structures are inherantly bad.
thinking sydney and Seattle are the same missional context.
impatience with process and timely implementation. (the fast fix)
thinking that if it aint like me it aint for me ( the hup heresy).
over textualising and under contending and inadvertently compromising.
that last one should have been
over CONtextualising and under contending ->compromising.
To branch off in another direction a little, wrt. to:
We embark on a subtle shift towards trying to win the respect of cutting-edge peers (in the internet world), instead of reaching the outsider (in the real world).
Best estimates put Sydney’s population at 50% non-English speaking background by 2025.
Does the push from the younger generation regarding church include a strong cross-cultural element (non-Anglo, that is), or is it (in practice) just going to be about reaching young, wealthy, tech-savvy, highly mobile, coffee drinking Aussies?
No one’s against cross-cultural ministry in theory, but it feels like it’s always someone else’s job.
It’s our job.
@ Shane
I’ve got a couple of years of youth left in me by your reckoning.
Thanks for your reflections and for using the parent / child analogy. I have been restraining myself from using it but I think it is worth pursuing some time in more detail. (Some one can do it here if they want). Your other dangers are very apt warnings.
@ Shane and Ben
It seems like this is a big one – trying to please peers. You could be right, Ben, there may not be as much “internet” kudos in migrant (or even low socio-economic) ministries.
@Paul – I think Phil N sums up what I mean by ‘being heard’ very well.
@ Andrew – sorry if I came across like I was demaninding some special platform. I actually don’t want/expect anything from the older gen. I don’t want something from them… I want *them*!
FWIW, I have been pushing very very hard among the ‘Oz29’ crew to preserve relationships with the older gen.
@ Di – Great question! Perhaps within the context of a ‘really hearing’ relationships they are free to critique. But yes. Great question…
Andrew, I think you identify some real dangers, and thus this post is a warning that people of my generation need to take seriously.
However, looking over this list, I believe that any generation can fall into these traps at any point of their generational phase. They aren’t things specific to any current events, but rather things that are tied to any thoughtful approach to ministry.
Concretely,
a) Almost all people who labor for Christ tend to have moments where they believe that *their* work is the important part.
b) We all have a tendency to reach out to the people that we want to be like: the apostle James witnesses to this. I imagine a critical look at the demographics of North Sydney Anglican churches might reveal a certain bias, too.
I think the real corrective here is to actually think about who the audience is that you are trying to reach.
c) Style has been continually put over substance in the church. Whether it’s music or liturgy or Bible version or a preacher-as-uni-lecturer cadence or a preference to calling the Word our guide over calling the Spirit our guide or vice versa, we have let surface matters get in the way of truth to our shame.
I’m interested to know why you think this trend is increasing, and what examples you can think of valuing the tech-savvy over the biblical.
d) We all have issues we avoid. Is hell really a place where God actively pours out his wrath on the vast majority of humanity for all eternity, or is it a place where God removes all his blessings and leaves people to be as they want. I first read of the latter in C. S. Lewis, and most recently in a book by Tim Keller.
e) You can agree without honouring and honour without agreeing. At some point it becomes a matter of the heart.
There are two extremes we all wish to avoid: ignoring the teachings of the previous generation and blindly adhering to all taught by the previous generation. The first is Pharasaism, the second is sinful foolishness. Looking in my own heart and from conversations with some of the rabble-rousers, I don’t see the danger as that great.
For what it’s worth, I work from home with people all over world through the Internet; many people I count as close friends are people I know principally via the net; I have proclaimed the Gospel on the net; I’ve been a peacemaker on the net; I’ve published on the net; I’ve built software that has been given away to the internet community over the internet; I’ve taught people; I’ve gossiped and slandered and boasted and gazed lecherously and drunkenly slurred on the net; I’ve even practiced hospitality.
I can’t help but feel patronized when someone says that this is not the “real world”. Were it true, it would mean I am not a real person.
@ Mikey
I’m interested in what you are saying. This “conversation” has been really helpful – I think I did misunderstand you in the first post. I still want to really get what you mean by “wanting them”.
If you want, send me a private message if you think that it is better discussed off the public record.
@ Jonathan
Thank you so much for your comments.
I totally agree with you that these dangers will face every generation – but I think every generation will face them in different ways. Our generation does face particularly new forms that are influenced by postmodernism and the internet. (for good and for ill)
In my personal blog I am trying to hear what people think are some of the issues that we will have to take a stand for. Come over and make a comment if you want.
These were issues that affect me. In terms of valuing tech savvy – with shame, I must admit that I will sometimes will look at a church and see their great website, their amazing powerpoint, their awesome graphics and think – that is a great church. It may be a great church – but it is not it’s technology that will make it so. (I will say this, it certainly helps to reach out to people!)
In terms of “web” versus “real world” I think my key word was *peer*. We can be in danger of doing ministries – but doing them in a way to get kudos in these kinds of forums.
While there are some who do all their ministry online – most of us in some form of leadership have responsibilities that are face-to-face: preaching, leading small groups, evangelism, leadership training, visiting the sick, prayer etc. Those are still the main game for most of us. There are exceptions obviously as some do amazing evangelism online with people who are not allowed or able to go to church. But I think the online world is only a support the offline world and not a replacement of it. If someone became a Christian through an online web conversation surely we would want them as soon as possible to meet with other Christians in person. (but this is another discussion)