I got the date wrong for the inaugural planning meet for this new Matthias Media blog.
It was my own silly fault. Tony had booked two successive Wednesdays in our diaries until all participants could confirm which of these dates was preferred (the latter, as it turned out). I forgot to remove the spare date one week earlier. Then when I got his reminder to see you ‘next Wednesday’, it was the old chestnut of whether next Wednesday means this Wednesday, or the one in the following week. I saw the date for this Wednesday and hopped in the car seven days early!
Anyway, there I was at Moore College after a 90-minute drive from Wollongong, wondering why no-one had turned up and getting that sinking feeling! Finally I checked the email from Tony on my laptop. He had been clear on the date: I was one week too early. A muttered word of self-disgust under the breath … a three-hour round trip for nothing!!!
The strange thing was that I didn’t feel worse. This was my first week back after three weeks’ annual leave, so I should have felt like I needed every precious minute to clear my messages and get up-to-date on my ministry projects. I’m not a very reflective person, but at that moment, I realized how grateful I am to be a Calvinist. If I’d been an Arminian, all I’d be left with was my stupidity. As a Calvinist, I was still left with my stupidity, but I also knew God was in control. Totally. Despite my choices and mistakes. It was a relief to remember that.
I know the issues of sovereignty are more complex than this, but being a Calvinist was why I wasn’t more annoyed at that point.
It’s the hardworking farmer who deserves the first share of the crops (2 Tim 2:6). But success in ministry and true gospel growth does not depend on my frantic, hard work, but on God. And his plan to unite all things under Christ continued without me, even though I was lost on three wasted hours of bitumen for no apparent purpose.
Actually, it wasn’t totally wasted: at the college bookshop, I managed to purchase a book I’d been wanting which was not otherwise available in Australia. It was their only copy and it could turn out to be one of the books of the year. (Look out for the review.) And I listened to one sermon while I drove in each direction: a senior colleague had given the CDs to me as good examples of evangelical preaching from outside my own local stable. It’s always good to listen to God’s word that way. And I also picked up a couple of worthwhile sermon illustrations to pinch.
And even though it wasn’t really the main point of the passage the preacher was preaching, one of those sermons also warned that haste was the great enemy of spiritual growth. Ouch! I’ll read my emails more slowly next time.
i once turned up to a birthday party a week early. very embarrassing. i think i then missed it on the real date!
i was probably arminian at that point in time. i was 10. many 10 year olds are by default arminian!
Sandy, I was reading the Predestination issue of Reformation and Revival journal and promptly lost it.
Now that’s something to make you think about God’s sovereignty!
I found it the next week on top of a very high, old-fashioned piano [it didn’t even have 88 notes, so was probably late 19th or early 20th century] in a Roman Catholic school where I was teaching piano.
Reminds me of these supposed graffiti:
Free will is a foregone conclusion
God made me an Arminian
Choose life, choose Calvinism
When I reflect on providence in the sort of situation you describe, I often find myself thinking of the book of Ruth. Verses like
“So she set out and went and gleaned in the field after the reapers, and <i>she happened</i> to come to the part of the field belonging to Boaz, who was of the clan of Elimelech. ” (Ruth 2:3)
It’s a book where the LORD only appears in the third person, never speaking directly, and in that way has great overlap with our personal experience. (And how appropriate that it is set in the apparently God-forsaken period of the Judges, where his direct word gradually retreats from the regular experience even of the judges thenselves!)
Yet it is clear right through the narrative that God is sovereignly caring for those who put their trust in him, through the daily circumstances of life.
Sandy,
I’m glad you said that the issues of sovereignty are more complex than this, because they are. Knowing God’s sovereign control and our own weakness and folly certainly should allow us to relax into life. But I do get worried about people who appeal to God’s sovereignty as a way of avoiding ethical responsibility. You know the “I did the wrong thing but I’m sure God will use it, so it doesn’t matter in the end”.
I don’t think that is what you are saying – but the logic could be extended that way. I am guessing that if more had been at stake than a missed 90 minutes – say the consequences were more dire, or you’d arrived a weak late an so failed to keep a promise – then you’d have felt a bit different. You would not have blamed God, but his sovereignty would not have meant that you did not feel guilt or regret.
It is a bit like the old arguments about whether Calvinists should apply ‘measures’ in evangelism. Some people held that any use of appeals, music etc would show a lack of faith in God’s sovereign grace. But the limit on what we do is not some point where we might intrude on God’s ground, it is all God’s ground. The limit’s are ethical, we must treat people as image bearers and allow them sufficient space to make responsible and informed decisions, and not manipulate them. Of course what that space is will vary for people and between cultures. So the decisions are ethical. The doctrine of God’s sovereignty is the background idea which allows us to remain at ease with not trying to control other people.
My guess is that in your example sovereignty is in the background, but that there are other elements in your view of yourself and your life that meant you did not feel terrible about the not so wasted time.
John,
A very wise comment – if my less than complete posts can draw reflections like these from readers, then we’ll all benefit.
On that occasion I certainly had the comfort of God’s sovereignty enter the front of the mind. But you are right that there are other factors at work too.
And I certainly checked that my diary program was working properly, afterwards!
Sandy, who was the preacher you were listening to?
If Calvin was a restorer of the true understanding of the Gospel way of salvation…why is there no prediction of him in Scripture?
Why is his interpretation missing from 1500 years of Church history?
There are plenty of predictions of false teachers though.
Calvin effectively cuts you of from the authentic Christian tradition, the Blessed Eucharist and the correct understanding of Grace.
Every figure before Calvin taught that baptism was regenerative..he was the first to ” refute” this.
His understanding of the Fathers, and Church history is also limited.
As a former Evangelical,I feel his doctrine of double predestination and once saved alwys saved has led more souls astray than any other.
I could not place my soul and th e spiritual welfare of my family in the hands of this fallible man.
Hello Robert, and welcome to our blog. Thanks for expressing your opinion, albeit by introducing multiple questions and issues, all by way of assertion and nothing more.
You may have noticed in my original post that I said the issues of divine sovereignty are more complex than I was expressing in my post. I was not entering into the doctrinal complexities at this point. Rather I was making a largely personal and pastoral point that the knowledge of God’s complete control of all things (for better or worse summarised under the title of Calvinism) gave me great comfort.
However, I was very glad to hear that you could not place your soul or the spiritual welfare of your family in the hands of this fallible man (being Calvin). I am certain John Calvin would be glad to hear this.
It would be an egregious misunderstanding of Calvin or my original post to suggest that we’d ever think you should put your life in his hands.
No doubt Calvin would also beg you not to place your life in the hands of the Pope either, nor any merely human leader, and rather lean wholly and solely on the perfect teaching and redeeming work of the Lord Jesus Christ, God come in the flesh, to die and rise for us.
Robert,
can I add that Sandy’s blog with his view of providence could have just as easily been entitled “Why I am glad I am an Augustinian”. I certainly don’t pretend that Calvin is identical to Augustine, but he quoted Augustine more often than any other church Father (and that was a lot!) and almost always in agreement. Calvin treasured his connection with the church Fathers (not to say – again – that you have to agree with his take on them)
Your comment on double predestination is interesting: you’ll find that Calvin’s view was not substantially different to Augustine and Aquinas.
John
However would you endorse or Calvin endorse Augustine’s statement,I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Church did not move me to it.
Can you quote where Augustine teaches double predestination?
Of course it would be naive for me to suggest that Calvin and Augustine are the same. But Calvin saw much in common. His section on the church in the Institutes starts with the image of the church as the mother into which God gathers his children so they may reach maturity (Inst IV.1.1) and later says “there is no other way to enter into life unless this mother conceive us in her womb … away from her bosom one cannot hope for any forgiveness of sins or any salvation (IV.1.iv).
On ‘double’ predestination see Augustine “On the predestination of the saints” viii.14 where Augustine says “Why, then, does He not teach all that they may come to Christ, except because all whom He teaches, He teaches in mercy, while those whom He teaches not, in judgment He teaches not?”. See also J. Wetzel “Pelagianism, Predestination, and Foreknowledge,” in The Cambridge Companion to Augustine (Cambridge, 2001), pp. 49-58. See if you think that Calvin says anything more about “double” predestination than Augustine in his treatment of it in Inst III.xxii and xxiv.
<i>It would be an egregious misunderstanding of Calvin or my original post to suggest that we’d ever think you should put your life in his hands.</i>
Was this meant to be an in-joke, Sandy
Church fathers are not infallible , but Augustine of Hippo is totally Catholic, and teaches non of the serious errors that Calvin fell into.
He never appealed to Scripture against the Church…he firmly believed that the Word of God included the sacred tradition.
Scripture indicates that we can negotiate to some degree with God. Can we change His mind ? And what’s with Jesus “not knowing the day nor the hour,” as the scripture says- that’s only for the father.
If you had gone late to the group, or missed the day, how would the group have responded. Would you have been labelled as incompetent or untrustworthy. Thank God that we are under His grace, love and sovereign plan, not the judgement of fellow Christians with universal sinfulness !
John McClean
On predestination. If anyone claims to be elect over another, they sin. We need a bit more Jesus and Bible and a bit less Calvinist reasoning.
We are saved by grace alone. This election thing might have some meaning for later on, when the bride is fully revealed and manifest. Until then I suggest the lower calling of a servant of Christ and for the gospel to preach to all, that the elect may be reached for Salvation.
Until then boasting of election is simply SIN. We boast of Jesus and what HE has done ! Election has very little meaning for us apart than we should be on our knees, no prostrate praising God for His mercy, and wondering why our uncircumcised hearts are so unthankful not to imitate the heart of Christ for the unsaved.
Gordon, you sound like a man who really needs a personal experience of Christ. While he’s not their physically, surely you believe that His Holy Spirit is within ?
I mean does anyone remember what the scripture teaches about, no longer will a man need to teach a man ? I assume this had to do with a new intimacy of Christ, and intimacy you MTS folks seem to mock.
Gordon that might be a bit strong.
I feel like you guys just go through the motions sometimes. I don’t see the wonder of God and His work alive as I experienced in my youth. In fact Sydney in some ways seemed to kill my faith, certainly not encouraging. When little MTS newly converted robots tell you you are wrong because you don’t use the 2 ways to live (some of them your disciples Mr Cheng) and start persecuting you for not being a real Christian because your style is a bit different. I’d say you have a big responsibility to correct that issue. So much for grace huh ?
David wrote,
David, certainly not an in-joke, and I’m sorry I was not more unambiguous
My reference to not placing our lives in the hand of ‘this man’ refers to Calvin, not Christ.
It was written in response to Robert’s comments against Calvin, where he concluded about Calvin,
I was agreeing with that part of his comment and was surprised to think that anyone would think I was advocating we place our lives in Calvin’s hands! We should only place our lives in Christ’s hands.
I apologise for not being more clear.
Hello, Alf, and welcome. I must say I agree when you wrote,
It made me a little surprised and sad when in your immediately following posts, you accused people who thought they might be elect as sinning, and implied that John or I might even be boasting in election. In the following post, you implied that Gordon has not yet had a personal experience of God and needs one. How is it that you have this insight into the attitude of our hearts and can make these judgments.
You then feel free to make some criticisms of MTS, speaking dismissively of “newly converted MTS robots”. (I actually agree that MTS apprentices – and trainers – get it wrong, some of us quite often. I am certainly a clay vessel – fragile and fallible.)
However, Alf, in light of your own warning against judging fellow Christians, may I ask you to reflect on whether your following posts have been written in the spirit you say you would like to see MTS people to extend to those who differ.
Point taken, I will try ! Please pray for me. I’d love to be over my 10 year MTS angst ! Your answers are brilliantly thorough by the way. You do illustrate well what you you say in your response- full of grace. Appreciate the reply.
Alf, to the substantive matter of election/predestination, my original post was really sharing a personal response to how I understand the Bible’s teaching on God’s thorough-going sovereignty over all things – which I summarised under the convenient title of ‘Calvinism’. It was obviously not a presentation of this view.
However, you are quite right to say no one should boast in election. I apologise that my remarks appeared to come across that way to you. We should certainly only boast in Christ who is for us wisdom from God, that is our righteousness, holiness and redemption. So, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord” (1 Cor 1:30-31).
But you also wrote,
We only raise the matter of predestination and election because the Bible does.
So for example, Jesus speaks of a group he calls the elect on several occasions, for example,
Paul also identifies people whom he addresses as elect or chosen or predestined.
To stop this post becoming too long, I will simply add further Pauline references (Col 3:12, Titus 1:1) and indicate that the Apostles Peter and John also spoke about election/being chosen (1 Peter 1:1; 2:4 & 9; 2 John 1 & 13; Revelation 17:14).
Apparently these people are in danger of committing the sin you identify of claiming some people are elect (whereas others by contrast are not). Paul even named an individual (Rufus) as elect!
I am fully aware that simply quoting the verses does not establish a full Calvinist understanding, although I think prima facie Calvinism is a natural understanding of these verses. But quoting the verses does give Alf the “bit more Jesus and Bible” he asked for and establishes that it is quite biblical to speak about election and indeed to identify a group of Christians as elect and predestined, and yet to do it without any sort of pride or boasting in ourselves.
Alf, thank you for your kind reply to my earlier comment. Although I don’t know you, I have prayed that God will help you over whatever difficulties you experienced through your interaction with MTS.
I know others for whom it’s been a mixed and even mainly negative experience. In my own case, I have never been a member of St Matthias or attended UNSW. I went into theological college as green and naive as they come aged 21, and humanly speaking would have benefitted from the MTS-style apprenticeship beforehand. (Pity the Senior Minister who got me as his new Assistant – John Gray – who was a great and gracious trainer of me!)
I have also benefitted tremendously from the teaching and insights and fellowship of Phillip Jensen and Col Marshall, and of others in the MTS movement, and think the MTS Challenge conferences and apprenticeship structure are very helpful and have lead too much good for God’s glory. I have had the privilege and joy of training several apprentices and know I have been blessed by them as much as anything I may have helped them with.
And so I am happy to keep supporting MTS. And yet, none of that stops me agreeing that MTS is far from perfect.
I pray that by the power of the Holy Spirit, you will continue to grow to know the full extent and dimensions of the love of Christ!
Calvin wanted a weekly celebration of the Lords Supper, and played bowls on a Sunday afternoon. He was also very scathing of those who denied infant baptism. Do you feel a Reformed person can be a Baptist or is the covenant of infant baptism essential to being a true Calvinist? I would be most interested in reading your responses.