An e-mail dialogue with Don Carson
From: Tony Payne
To: Don Carson
Subject: Worship
Dear Don,
Don’t you just hate it when you have a conversation and think afterwards of all the things you wish you’d said? After our interview on worship, I had just this experience. In particular, I wish that I had explored with you further about whether we should think about church in the categories of worship. Seems to me that we were in thorough agreement whilst ever we were talking about what we should actually do in church, etc. I remain deeply puzzled, however, about your fondness for retaining worship language to describe the endeavour. Perhaps it’s a cultural thing. Or perhaps there is more to it.
In any case, I thought I’d drop you this quick email, and overcome my feelings of impertinence by being typically blunt as we Australians are allowed to be (apparently).
In brief, it seems to me that your argument for still referring to church as worship (in some qualified sense such as ‘corporate worship’) is:
- it is not technically wrong, since all of life is worship (therefore it includes the few hours on Sunday morning);
- we’ve called it this for ages; it is conventional;
- what harm is there in continuing the convention?
It seems to me that you could make a similar argument for referring to church as a temple (as in 1 Cor 3), or to the minister as a priest (as in the priestly ministry of preaching the gospel). Technically you could mount a justification, and you could argue that the usage was conventional and fairly harmless.
Yet it’s not harmless. I think you would agree that the danger of importing OT cultic connotations, as well as undercutting the NT usage and emphasis, would militate against ‘temple’ or ‘priest’ terminology. And given what has happened in history (in relation to Roman Catholicism) we would regard it as unwise in the extreme to begin to use this sort of terminology to describe our gatherings, or elements of them. This is precisely my point with regard to ‘worship’.
Jesus is the true worshipper (the leitourgos, if you will, of Heb 8:2) who ministers in THE sanctuary on our behalf (just as he is our temple, high priest and sacrifice). It is no wonder that the NT so avoids the language of worship in regard to church, as it avoids the language of temple (1 Cor 3 notwithstanding), priest and sacrifice. It’s just the wrong set of categories. In Hebrews it is most striking. In the context of Jesus’ heavenly ministry as worshipper, high priest and intercessor, the earthly character of our gatherings is to be ‘spurring one another on towards love and good deeds’ (Heb 10). Even though the writer is shortly to discuss the heavenly gathering around the throne (in Heb 12), he at no point implies that our earthly gatherings are in some way a copy of this. And for good reason—the copy of the heavenly tabernacle was the OT tabernacle, as given to Moses, and this is what Christ has fulfilled in glorious reality. To in any sense then speak of our current earthly gatherings in terms of temple, priest or worship is gravely to misunderstand our eschatological situation in my view.
Now, I’m not saying that church is a purely ‘horizontal’ affair, or that it is not a very serious business, and where God is present (this is the whole point of 1 Cor 3 and the need to build carefully). Yet I think those who distinguish between the ‘horizontal’ ministry of edification and the ‘vertical’ practices of praise and worship, have missed the point. False dichotomies abound. The argument of 1 Cor 3 is that what we do (in sowing, watering, building etc.) is done before God; that he provides the growth, that he is present by his Spirit, and will call us to account for good or bad work. 1 Cor 12-14 makes the related point, that it is by the gifts of God (manifest by the Spirit) that we edify one another etc.
(On the opposite side, I would argue that praise is just as much confession before the congregation and the world, as it is direct address to God—if not more so. Certainly that’s what you would get from the Psalms. But that’s another story.)
The language and categories that dominate NT teaching about church are those of love and edification (e.g. 1 Cor 3; 1 Cor 12-14; Eph 4; Heb 10 etc.). Why don’t we simply talk about what we should do in church, on the basis of these and similar passages? Why import and overlay ‘worship’ language, when the NT doesn’t do so, and when there are so many latent dangers (which have played themselves out repeatedly in church history, the most threatening current manifestation being the charismatic ‘praise and worship’ industry)?
There we are. I have made my plea. Lest this brief email become even less brief than it already is, I’ll stop there. Thanks again for your fellowship and help in our ministry.
Warmly yours in Christ
Tony
From: Don Carson
To: Tony Payne
Subject: On worship
Dear Tony,
Thanks for your thoughtful reflections. I confess your arguments have not persuaded me, partly, I think, because you invariably link a too-limiting set of parameters to ‘worship’.
For you, every use of ‘worship’ seems to be associated with the cultic. That is what finally drives you to say that Jesus is the only ‘worshipper’, the leitourgos in the heavenly sanctuary. Yet John 4 says Jesus seeks certain kinds of worshippers: apparently he thinks that it is still appropriate to attach the label to believers.
Where we are in agreement, I think, is in saying that under the terms of the new covenant the emphasis is away from the cultic and on all of life. But this is more than the autonymic response of breathing: there is intentionality to it. I agree entirely with your intermingling of horizontal and vertical dimensions. But if we are to love God with heart and soul and mind and strength, that is equivalent, as far as I can see, to worship under the new covenant. We do not love God less when we come together. That is why, when I speak of ‘worship’ in connection with church, I prefer to use some sort of expression as ‘corporate worship’ to distinguish it from the broad sweep of what worship seems to embrace under the new covenant.
I do not see that any of your genuine concerns over sacramentalism or Pentecostalism are at all glossed over by what I am saying. I share those concerns. But you would be right, I think, only if the word ‘worship’ must have the associations with which you link it.
Is this helpful, or am I missing something?
Warmly,
Don Carson
From: Tony Payne
To: Don Carson
Subject: Is it strategic?
Dear Don
Many thanks for your kind reply. Yes it was helpful. I can now see the difference that remains between us, and I think it is pedagogical and practical rather than theological. Let me briefly explain.
I entirely agree with your comments about worship in the NT. I don’t think I’m guilty of attaching ‘worship’ only to the cultic. I’m a big fan of Romans 12 after all (and John 4 for that matter). The point is, as you rightly acknowledge, that the fulfilment in Jesus pushes NT usage away from the cultic and to all of life. Loving God with heart, soul, mind and strength is indeed worship, and it is of necessity something we also do together. But it is the next step that I am still unconvinced about. You say:
We do not love God less when we come together. That is why, when I speak of “worship“ in connection with church, I prefer to use some sort of expression as “corporate worship“ to distinguish it from the broad sweep of what worship seems to embrace under the new covenant.
I would ask: why do you “speak of worship in connection with church” at all? Is it because the NT drives you to, or because Christian tradition conditions you to?
If we were both to start from scratch—tabula rasa—and somehow put all our histories and traditions to one side; and if we then tried to decide how to label and speak of our corporate life, judging only by the terminology and theology of the NT, I would be astonished if either of us came up with ‘worship’ (even ‘corporate worship’) as an important (let alone overarching) term or category. Would you agree?
However, we are not starting from scratch. We have a long history of using ‘worship’ in relation to church, largely (it must be said) for the wrong reasons. And here is the practical difference between us I think. Your approach, given this tradition, is to retain the language, but qualify it, rehabilitate it in NT directions. Our approach has been to scrap the worship language, and start again with more dominant NT categories.
I suppose time will tell which is the better pedagogical strategy; or indeed whether different strategies work better in different contexts. I would guess that arguing against the use of worship language in relation to church, for pedagogical reasons, would get you into a massive donnybrook in your part of the world. It may not be worth it. Then again, there is nothing like driving the money-changers from the temple to make your point …
Thanks again for this invigorating exchange.
Yours in Christ
Tony
From: Don Carson
To: Tony Payne
Subject: Response
Dear Tony
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think that the difference between us is largely pedagogical; I am not quite certain it is entirely so.
- Let us grant a shared biblical theology of worship. Nevertheless the early Christians, when they met together for their corporate meetings, did some things that had resemblance to the temple worship of the old covenant: singing, prayers, hearing of Scripture, confession of sin, teaching. There were, of course, differences: the cultic measures were entirely transformed. Moreover, the range of worship terminology is applied far more broadly under the new covenant (thus I return to our shared biblical theology). But is it so great a stretch to use ‘worship’, and especially ‘corporate worship’, as one of several over-arching categories (though certainly not the only one) to describe what happens when Christians get together? Of course there are dangers. But there are also dangers of over-reaction—as, for instance, “You are Peter” is completely misinterpreted by many scholars this side of the Reformation, because they cannot swallow the RC interpretation.
- The matter between us can be cast as different pedagogy, as you suggest; but it can also be cast as a typical translation problem. When we speak of ‘worship’, we are using an English word. To ask whether that word is associated with church in the New Testament is slightly misleading—partly because neither our English ‘church’ nor our English ‘worship’ has a univocal relation with any one Greek word (though of course there are substantial overlaps). Again: I am not trying to overturn our shared biblical theology; nor am I denying that there are pedagogical challenges to sort out. But part of the latter challenges are tied up with translational challenges.
- Sometimes it is better to take an antithetical stance to enhance clear thought. But:
- there is also something to be said about trying not to alienate people unnecessarily;
- as the influence of Sydney Anglicans grows worldwide, you will surely undertake to be understood, in what you are saying, by as many different people as possible, for the sake of influencing them with biblical thinking; and
- I think an antithetical way of handling the issue can lead (and has in some cases) toward insufficient attention being given to developing really excellent corporate worship (or whatever you prefer to call it).
Some of the sentimental and uncontrolled forms of contemporary ‘worship’ are at least in part a response to perceived sterility in our meetings. This is not their only rootage, of course but surely it has to be taken into account in our discussions of the best way ahead, wouldn’t you say?
I remain impressed by the images of ‘corporate worship’ in heaven in Revelation and the way it is in part supposed to be the fullness towards which we press now.
Keep in touch!
Don Carson
From: Tony Payne
To: Don Carson
Subject: One last thing
Dear Don,
Thank you for another thought-provoking reply.
I certainly don’t think it’s wrong or illegitimate to use ‘worship’ as the overarching category (or one of them). You can mount a case, as you have. I still do think it is a stretch in terms of the NT usage and terminology (even granted the translational issues you raise). But you are the NT professor, and I am but a humble editor. I put my hand on my mouth.
One final comment on the pedagogical strategies: I was telling a colleague about our interesting email conversation, and his response was to the effect that re-educating people to use ‘worship’ terminology correctly would be a herculean task—given that you have all the charismatics and pentecostals, the huge marketing resources of the praise and worship industry, the Anglo-Catholics, the liberal-Catholics and the Roman Catholics all beefing out the opposite message! In that context, being heard and understood may require the use of clear communication, however initially startling it may seem to some.
Of course, you’re right about the need to work harder at what we actually do when we get together. If it ends up being either a vacuous chat-show (poorly done), or a sterile lecture, then surely we have failed.
Thanks again for agreeing to this friendly exchange. I have enjoyed it enormously. In fact, it has just occurred to me that some of what has flown back and forth might make a useful supplement to the tape interview. Would you mind if I used some of the material this way?
From: Don Carson
To: Tony Payne
Subject: Broadcasting our conversation
Go right ahead.
Don.
